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Pi
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« on: September 03, 2015, 09:22:28 PM »

Tell you what Jeff, here's what I'll do.

As you said, I'm a horrible condescending jerk.  And you are so much smarter than me when it comes to the things that matter.  The rest of what I add to this discussion board can be characterized as debating that which are severe distractions.  In short, the rest of what we discuss here isn't important in the grand scheme of things. 

Presumably, that would include:

1. Planned Parenthood selling baby parts
2. Encroachment of government in our privacy
3. ....Everything else

Therefore, you should carry that torch for a while.  After all, you are the superior intellect.  It is now your job to simply talk about the topic that matters, i.e. religion.  You can debate the liberals on that topic all you want.

After all, what purpose is there to all the posts I've made?  What is the point of trying to educate people about the principles of capitalism?  Why should we remind people that socialism doesn't work?  Why talk about the need to defend our personal freedoms?  It all just pales in comparison to what is important, which are discussions about God.

So it is your show Jeff.  I'm going to take a break for a while.  I'm not contributing anything that really matters, so why bother? 
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NickD
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2015, 09:55:46 PM »

But... Logic?!
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Jeff G
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« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2015, 10:02:39 PM »

But... Logic?!

Oh, boy, scoffers again! **sigh**
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Pi
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« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2015, 10:20:44 PM »

Nick is cool he can scoff at me if he wants. Smiley
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Jeff G
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« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2015, 10:21:27 PM »

Tell you what Jeff, here's what I'll do.

As you said, I'm a horrible condescending jerk.  And you are so much smarter than me when it comes to the things that matter.  The rest of what I add to this discussion board can be characterized as debating that which are severe distractions.  In short, the rest of what we discuss here isn't important in the grand scheme of things. 

Presumably, that would include:

1. Planned Parenthood selling baby parts
2. Encroachment of government in our privacy
3. ....Everything else

Therefore, you should carry that torch for a while.  After all, you are the superior intellect.  It is now your job to simply talk about the topic that matters, i.e. religion.  You can debate the liberals on that topic all you want.

After all, what purpose is there to all the posts I've made?  What is the point of trying to educate people about the principles of capitalism?  Why should we remind people that socialism doesn't work?  Why talk about the need to defend our personal freedoms?  It all just pales in comparison to what is important, which are discussions about God.

So it is your show Jeff.  I'm going to take a break for a while.  I'm not contributing anything that really matters, so why bother? 

Here you are assuming way too much, Pi. I am trying to tell you in no uncertain terms, that we are quickly running out of time. The world is coming to a close and Christ will be back much sooner than most folks think. There are simply way too many things going on for our world to sustain this course much further. Just look at the manipulated economy and the number put out by the power that be, or the racial tensions right now getting ready to explode, the rampant immorality coursing through every aspect of this society, and world, ever increasing and over-reaching government intruding into every aspect of out lives, God being removed from public view and institutions, moral relativism running amok, this crazy left/right dichotomy serving to divide folks even more so, no representation in government or the choices we are given to elect said representation, Christian persecution, soon to be white persecution, 55 million aborted humans in this country alone since Roe/Wade, the recent signs in the heavens namely the Star of Bethlehem/Blood moons/etc, scientist at CERN trying to open up a portal into another dimension, and something else to watch for: a significant economic event centered around the End of 7th Shemitah cycle where as severe economic impact anticipated somewhere about September 14th (a little over one week away), the rise of the occult, and so very many other things going on right now as we speak. Far too many to list here.

The main thing I was hopeful in stressing: Things cannot go on the way they are now, so please do not live your life under the naive assumption that six months from now things will be the same as they have always been; things are changing rapidly.

These things are what drives me in saying all else is a distraction at this time. We each should focus on getting ourselves prepared, not merely for the coming disaster, but the coming of the Lord! It is my opinion these types of discussions are critically important at this time.
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« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2015, 11:36:07 PM »



You're not the first person to say that.  
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 11:40:58 PM by Pi » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2015, 06:02:52 AM »

I'll be the first to admit my arguments don't always follow a strict logical path, but man, this end of the world, Debbie-downer talk always gets to me..

There've been signs in the heavens for a long time. Every crappy world leader is accused of being the anti-Christ (did you know Ronald Reagan had six letters in his first, middle, and last name? Gasp), and although I won't deny that the world economy is in pretty poor shape, it's been pretty bad before too.
People have always been debauch, the occult was a big thing in the eighties, and there've been wars going on for a long, long time.

But Jeff. Clear your mind. Forget what you're reading in the news or reading on the web. Go outside early in the morning and take a deep,breath and listen. The birds are singing. The air is cool in anticipation of Autumn. The state fair is on the horizon.
If I hear a pack of coyotes in my field howling at night, I have a choice. Listen in fear, or marvel at the magnificence...

Personally, I choose to fill my mind with beauty and joy. Let the talking heads push fear into the minds of others. The world is a huge place. I'd wager a fair sum of money neither you nor I will live to see the end of it, and if it gets a little bumpy, just buckle up and enjoy the ride.
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« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2015, 09:03:10 AM »

I'll be the first to admit my arguments don't always follow a strict logical path, but man, this end of the world, Debbie-downer talk always gets to me..

There've been signs in the heavens for a long time. Every crappy world leader is accused of being the anti-Christ (did you know Ronald Reagan had six letters in his first, middle, and last name? Gasp), and although I won't deny that the world economy is in pretty poor shape, it's been pretty bad before too.
People have always been debauch, the occult was a big thing in the eighties, and there've been wars going on for a long, long time.

But Jeff. Clear your mind. Forget what you're reading in the news or reading on the web. Go outside early in the morning and take a deep,breath and listen. The birds are singing. The air is cool in anticipation of Autumn. The state fair is on the horizon.
If I hear a pack of coyotes in my field howling at night, I have a choice. Listen in fear, or marvel at the magnificence...

Personally, I choose to fill my mind with beauty and joy. Let the talking heads push fear into the minds of others. The world is a huge place. I'd wager a fair sum of money neither you nor I will live to see the end of it, and if it gets a little bumpy, just buckle up and enjoy the ride.

One thing I hope you will understand, Nick, is these things cause me fear because so many people are lost, and will send themselves to hell in denying their Creator (God doesn't send them, they send themselves). This (hell) is described in the Bible as a place of terrible anguish and suffering for all of eternity (I suspect their eternal punishment/condition could very well be due to their eternal sinning, i.e., cursing God for all eternity for their own condition!).

As to me, I am filled with joy in knowing Christ will soon be here! And I truly enjoy and marvel at all the wonderful things you've listed, but there is certainly more to our existence. Further, a lot of folks worship the creation, and not the Creator!
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« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2015, 11:06:57 AM »

Good grief, Pi! Does this ever end with you? I NEVER said these things you listed are not of critical importance; I am suggesting there is something else people need to be focusing on, which is their salvation and where they will spend eternity. The ramifications of such pale in comparison if one considers the potential eternal consequences.  

You said, and I quote:

The real question is: Does God exist? This has been the point of my discussion all along; to attempt figuring out the truthfulness of any answer to this question. In fact, this would be the most important topic to discover the truth about, and all else (politics, economy, divisiveness rampant in society, etc, etc.) would be severe and crippling distractions.

You said all other topics are severe and crippling distractions.  So which is it?  Is the abortion issue with Planned Parenthood a "severe and crippling distration" or is it of critical importance?

If it is indeed severely crippling to talk about the other things, then why even talk about it?  Maybe what you should have said is that topics have varying degrees of importance to you.  That I would buy.  But to say that everything else outside of a single topic is "a severe and crippling distraction" goes beyond ranking something with regard to importance.  Saying so bestows not just the value of relative unimportance.  It also asserts that engaging in conversation about the topic is negative because it is a severe and crippling distraction.

Now do you see my point?
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« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2015, 12:42:54 PM »

Of course I see your point. I've always understood that to be your point. And I do admit there certainly was a better way to state it. To hopefully clarify now, I do not think it is unwise, or unnecessary, or unimportant to talk about all the issues you've brought up, and then some. But if they interfere with a focus on the most important aspect dealing with the potential consequences of where we each will spend eternity, THEN those things WOULD serve as severe and crippling distractions. Maybe to state it another way, I need money, I need to eat, and pay my bills, I need for my health to be better in order to do these things, but the Bible teaches these things are fleeting, they won't be around, or we, for very long (particularly compared to eternity). So, the real issue is in the fact of whether or not we believe there is a God, and the Bible is His Word, and spoken in all truth in everything it touches.

If one has sufficiently dealt with the issue, then that would entirely be between themselves and their Creator, if of course there is One. The entire point I've been trying to make is the importance of sufficiently dealing with this issue of God. I've tried to stress there are far more plausible reasons to trust (have faith) the Christian God exists, as opposed to having faith He doesn't exist. Such an issue is far more than merely a belief one way or the other.
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« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2015, 02:15:51 PM »

Of course I see your point. I've always understood that to be your point. And I do admit there certainly was a better way to state it. To hopefully clarify now, I do not think it is unwise, or unnecessary, or unimportant to talk about all the issues you've brought up, and then some.


It would have been nice if you had made that statement earlier.

But if they interfere with a focus on the most important aspect dealing with the potential consequences of where we each will spend eternity,


Most important to you.  But not to those who believe, based on their own analysis, that when this life ends that's all there is.

THEN those things WOULD serve as severe and crippling distractions. Maybe to state it another way, I need money, I need to eat, and pay my bills, I need for my health to be better in order to do these things, but the Bible teaches these things are fleeting, they won't be around, or we, for very long (particularly compared to eternity). So, the real issue is in the fact of whether or not we believe there is a God, and the Bible is His Word, and spoken in all truth in everything it touches.


Again, that is your opinion based on what you believe to be true. 


If one has sufficiently dealt with the issue, then that would entirely be between themselves and their Creator, if of course there is One. The entire point I've been trying to make is the importance of sufficiently dealing with this issue of God. I've tried to stress there are far more plausible reasons to trust (have faith) the Christian God exists, as opposed to having faith He doesn't exist. Such an issue is far more than merely a belief one way or the other.


You say your reasons are plausible.  Others may decide that they are not sufficient.  First, one must understand that via logic and reason we are able to come to different conclusions.  You have come to one conclusion.  Another person may have arrived at a different conclusion. 

At this point, I don't think very highly of you and therefore don't care about sparing your feelings when it comes to your faith.  In case you missed it, I initially was concerned about making you uncomfortable, which is why I refused to have this conversation in the first place.  But since you have chosen to be so arrogant, and I've decided that I don't like you and that you are less intelligent than I initially thought, maybe I'll give you a few things to chew on after all.

Yes.  Those were personal insults.  Get used to it, because I'm just getting started.  Your "reasoning" if it could even be called that, is based upon tautologies.  It is based upon dogmatic principles that you cannot prove.  I cannot disprove the existence of God either.  It is nearly, if not absolutely, impossible to prove that something doesn't exist.

I have nothing against those that believe in God.  I have nothing against people who believe in God and tell me that I'm a sinner and I'm going to hell.  I do have something against someone who claims I have made logical fallacies based on the words they tried to put in my mouth.  That pisses me off.  Big time.  Asking you questions gets me nowhere because you'll repeat a Bible verse.  Can you really present an argument that doesn't rely on the premise that the Bible is factual and infallible?  You can't.  You can try.  You think you're so intelligent that you've thought of a way to describe it that Aquinas, Pascal, St. Augustine, and so many others failed to note?

So drag out the intelligent design argument if you want.  Point to the complexity of life.  Try to convince me that we do have soul and it weighs 2 ounces, or whatever other kind of things you can dredge up.

1. Explain to me how one is supposed to be happy in heaven if many of their loved ones did not have faith and are therefore burning in hell for eternity. How can one enjoy themselves while knowing that?  We're supposed to get new bodies, right?  Does a memory wipe come with that?  If so, what's the point?

2. Does the Bible have contradictions?  If not, how to you reconcile that?  Is there only one way to interpret the Bible?  How do you know that you are right and other interpretations are wrong?

3. Based on the New Covenant, is that why you feel you can disregard God's previous directives?  In other words, will you suffer a witch to live?

4. Why do people like you spend so much time preaching to skeptics when there are so many people who are supposedly of faith that need guidance?  Why not start with televangelists?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/7y1xJAVZxXg&amp;rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/7y1xJAVZxXg&amp;rel=0</a>


5. What about the people like Joel Osteen?  They preach about he positive aspects of a relationship with God, but stop short of talking about the consequences of NOT believing.  Are they apostate?  Why aren't you barking up his tree?

6. How certain are you that the second coming is nigh?  Do you still have money in a 401k?  If so, why?  Why not cash all of that out, and making sure your basic needs are met, use it to fund missionary trips to convert as many people as possible before the end of the world?

7. The Bible teaches us to turn the other cheek.  It also says "an eye for an eye".  Considering those two concepts let me ask you this.  How is it fair that we be punished for one lifetime that is insignificant when compared to eternity?  In other words, if we don't dedicate our short little existence to God, we deserve to be punished forever and ever?  How is that remotely fair?  How is it fair to be rewarded, forever and ever, based on a lifetime of sin if one repents at the 11th hour?  I'd have to say if that is God's sense of justice it is logically disproportionate.

8. You said that God can be experienced.  What hard evidence can be obtained from said experience?  What you're describing is an emotional experience.  Are you talking about miracles? 

Jeff, after much debate and consideration, it is clear to me that the Bible requires faith to overcome so many of these questions.  At some point, one must accept that the mind of God is something that can't be understood by humans.  If we are to accept the assertion by some Biblical scholars that the Earth is quite a bit younger than science suggests, then we must disregard much scientific evidence.

It is my opinion that many religious people are very insistent that they can logically prove that their faith in God is justified for a very simple reason.  Many progressives and those on the left have used one's faith in God as a means of disregarding everything they say.  The atheists would say that if one is willing to buy into the grand delusion that there is a God, one cannot trust their analysis on anything else.

I do not believe that to be the case.  Some of the most brilliant people I know are people who believe in God.  They are engineers, scientists, entrepreneurs, doctors, etc.  To me, the answers to the unprovables, such as the meaning of life, and whether or not there is a God, is a separate thought process from every other subject.  People can be coldly analytical, but quite emotional when it comes to discussions of what happens when we die.  There's nothing wrong with that.  It is therefore wrong for an atheist to disregard all arguments from a person of faith.  One wonders if every atheist out there asks every doctor, mechanic, dentist, etc. if they believe in God before they take their advice.  Most of the machinations of atheists seem to me to be all about garnering attention and feeling intellectually superior.  Their feelings of superiority are misplaced more often than not.

So I can see where a person of faith might be inclined to be defensive.  It is absolutely true that people of faith have been targeted.  Not to compare contemporary Christian persecution to other persecuted groups....but it is happening.  Forcing people to bake a cake is something government has no business doing and I think violates the rights of the business owners.  There is also a move afoot to require churches to marry same sex couples if they want to maintain their tax exempt status.  I think that is a horrible idea and is a violation of their First Amendment rights.

I disagree with many people who believe in God, but I do not think less of them in any way shape or form.  Nor do I think more of someone who happens to have come to the same conclusions I have about life after death (or the lack thereof).  Jeff, you have found what you believe to be the truth, and that's great.  But neither of us can prove that we are correct.  This issue isn't like mathematics.  We're not adding a column of numbers to get the same result. 

If you're worried I'm going to hell, thanks for your concern.  I'm not trying to change your mind.  Instead, I'm naming just a few of the things that I struggled with when it came to religion.  Now, you don't have to respect that.  You don't even have to respect me.  But I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

Also, you are wasting your time if you post a bunch of Bible verses and point to them as justification for your beliefs.  That is the very definition of circular reasoning.  There's simply no completely logic based reason for believing in God.  There must be some element of faith.  That's what I've been telling you all along.  If you want to argue that point I'm really not interested.
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« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2015, 02:28:34 PM »

Of course I see your point. I've always understood that to be your point. And I do admit there certainly was a better way to state it. To hopefully clarify now, I do not think it is unwise, or unnecessary, or unimportant to talk about all the issues you've brought up, and then some.

Let me go back to this, because you handled this very poorly.  It's not that you stated it badly or unclearly.  You were very clear.  This is backpedaling on your part.

You reversed yourself.  Plain and simple.  You had your chance to admit that, but instead you felt you had to add "clarity".  What do you have to say for yourself?
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« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2015, 02:52:41 PM »

Of course I see your point. I've always understood that to be your point. And I do admit there certainly was a better way to state it. To hopefully clarify now, I do not think it is unwise, or unnecessary, or unimportant to talk about all the issues you've brought up, and then some.

Let me go back to this, because you handled this very poorly.  It's not that you stated it badly or unclearly.  You were very clear.  This is backpedaling on your part.

You reversed yourself.  Plain and simple.  You had your chance to admit that, but instead you felt you had to add "clarity".  What do you have to say for yourself?

Pi, you have an orderly mind. I do not always agree with the exact conclusion you come to, but I respect your opinions and logic. It is an absolute truth that some of my conclusions are based primarily on my faith.  It is clear to me that there is a difference in philosophy between you and Jeff. But, it is likewise clear that Jeff has expressed contrition for not saying something properly, which offended you. One advantage of the Christian ethic is that forgiveness allows us to get past these things.  I myself have offended you in the past, not because of my belieifs, I think, but because of how I expressed them and characterized YOUR beliefs. It is my opinion that you chose to forgive me, eventually.  I do not claim to have changed your mind on anything, but you chose to be forgiving of my expressions of my faith, awkwardly done, and accept that I am basically a conservative ally who sometimes expresses himself badly, by your high standards.  It is true that both jeff and I would have you be like us, "slaves to Christ except for these chains," but we both recognize that this must be and can ONLY be, your decision. I am certain that neither of us INTEND to cause offense, but I am equally certain that we CAN step on nerves inadvertently.  But, it would be against our core beliefs to cause offense to you, because of our belief in Christ, if that would cause further division between you and our God.  If it is within you, I would ask you forgive the offense, and think about who you and I have known Jeff to be. I doubt he INTENDED offense.

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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2015, 03:17:45 PM »

I am certain that neither of us INTEND to cause offense, but I am equally certain that we CAN step on nerves inadvertently.  But, it would be against our core beliefs to cause offense to you, because of our belief in Christ, if that would cause further division between you and our God.  If it is within you, I would ask you forgive the offense, and think about who you and I have known Jeff to be. I doubt he INTENDED offense.

If he wants forgiveness, he can come ask for it himself.  It was, however, very kind of you to put in a good word on his behalf.  I also believe that he did in fact intend to be offensive.  It wasn't that he didn't say something properly.  He contradicted himself and instead of admitting such he claimed he was unclear.  That's not contrition, that's pleading to a lesser charge.

At some point, I might forgive Jeff but it will be over the course of time and depend on his behavior.  It is also worth noting that you have directed your comments to me in order to get me to change my approach instead of directing some sort of comment toward him.  I don't know if that means you're more or less on his side or if you're appealing to me because you think I'm more willing to listen.  Maybe it is both, I don't know.

Let me make sure that one thing is understood.  If I say anything about religion in general I don't want you to take it personally.  As I have been saying over and over again, I didn't want this conversation.  But he pushed and pushed, and so now here we are.  As I said before, I do not think less of anyone that disagrees with me on this topic.  That's not the way I look at it.  Christians have been targeted politically.  Despite the fact that I am agnostic, I have donated money and time toward causes that would defend people based on their First Amendment rights.  There is a movement afoot to strip churches of their tax exempt status if they refuse to marry same sex couples.  They are already fining people for not baking cakes, etc.  I believe those government actions violate First Amendment rights.

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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2015, 03:34:32 PM »

I've told you, Pi, that it wasn't intentionally meant to be offensive, yet you could care less apparently. I've told you that now, what, 3 times? The third time you were receptive?

I have nothing to apologize for, as I didn't mean any offense. YOU are the one that interpreted it as such (leading to another one of your "truth claims"). I would however, like to state in no uncertain terms, I am truly sorry you found offense in what I said. As I said, I didn't mean it that way. I said so when you first approached me about it, yet you continued with insults and ridicule.

I can't understand why you don't see a difference in a couple of things here: 1) The difference in intentionally being insulting, and being interpreted as such (case in point: you've admitted to being intentionally insulting!). 2) The difference between arrogance and confidence. I admit I have confidence in speaking with authority on these matters because God is truth, He cannot lie. I am merely repeating either direct truths stated in the Bible, or Godly principles rooted in the very character of God. In other words, I believe with every fiber of my existence I have truth on my side. If you, or anyone else disagrees with what I say, state the reason why, not simply THAT you disagree, and begin hurling insults. You should know that no matter how strongly we believe in something, THAT isn't what makes it true or untrue! We use reason/logic to determine that.

I will be back later this evening, as your lengthy post above needs to be addressed.

« Last Edit: September 04, 2015, 04:02:48 PM by Jeff G » Logged
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