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Author Topic: Obama On Gay Marriage: 選f You Like Your Religion, You Can Keep Your Religion  (Read 6756 times)
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zorro
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« on: June 27, 2015, 10:23:59 PM »

Obama On Gay Marriage: 選f You Like Your Religion, You Can Keep Your Religion
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/06/27/obama-on-gay-marriage-if-you-like-your-religion-you-can-keep-your-religion/

Friday, after the Supreme Court unilaterally made gay marriage the law of the land, President Obama made a statement from the White House that included this lie:

    I know that Americans of good will continue to hold a wide range of views on this issue. Opposition, in some cases, has been based on sincere and deeply held beliefs. All of us who welcome today痴 news should be mindful of that fact and recognize different viewpoints, revere our deep commitment to religious freedom.

In other words, 的f you like your religion, you can keep your religion.

This statement from our president is no truer than his lie during the ObamaCare debate about being able to keep your doctor and insurance under ObamaCare.

Obama knew he was lying then. Obama knows he is lying now about protecting religious freedom.

Legalizing same sex marriage was not the endgame for the Left it is in fact the creation of a weapon that will now be used to marginalize, punish, terrorize, and decimate the Christian religion, its practitioners, and the Church itself.

The small business owners and CEOs already targeted for extinction by the Left are just the beginning.

Churches that refuse to perform same sex weddings will not only be relentlessly shamed as bigots by the left and their allies in the mainstream media, their tax-exempt status will be also challenged; their ability to perform public services will be extinguished. The media is smoothing this jihad, but it is already happening.

Naturally, the government will take religion痴 place.

Obama can sing 鄭mazing Grace, but he doesn稚 believe a word of it.

Obama痴 a proven liar, and his comments about respecting religion are a tactical move to get us to take down our guard.

 
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John Florida
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« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2015, 10:13:12 AM »

  What we saw is the tip of the spear next they have to go for the churches to marry them which I believe is the goal. 
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 04:52:52 AM »

The goal is the destruction of the church. Note that the ACLU has withdrawn support for religious freedom, after fighting for Sikh rights under the federal legislation, they now have changed sides and oppose religious freedom, because Christians might choose NOT to participate in a homosexual marriage. And THAT cannot be allowed. There are also groups pursuing taxation of churches and other non-profits, because how else do you destroy anything without using big government to tax it out of existence?
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 08:39:14 AM »

The bottom line is that marriage became a secular function of society.  It is not just a function of the church.  If it were, we would not be having these discussions.  Furthermore, this is not a Christian nation and was founded upon the principle that no religion shall set State policy and the courts have rightfully struck down an attempt to do so.   的f you like your religion, you can keep your religion." is not a lie.  You are free to practice your religion but you are not free to dictate it's tenants upon the rest of society and it is scary to think that you consider being prohibited from doing so a destruction of your religious freedom.  Let me reiterate this because it is an important point: you're saying that not being able to dictate your religion to others is a violation of YOUR freedom.  That is complete nonsense. 

As far as the other points go, government functionaries acting in a govt fashion should be required to fulfill their obligations as agents of the state regardless of their personal views, religious or otherwise.  This is simply part of being an adult and being paid to do a job.

With regards to the tax exempt status of churches, why should any of them be tax exempt?

Lastly, this isn't a right versus left issue.  Right wing politicos does not equal religion. 

Jesus belongs in church, not the statehouse.
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2015, 10:59:09 AM »

With regards to the tax exempt status of churches, why should any of them be tax exempt?

Lastly, this isn't a right versus left issue.  Right wing politicos does not equal religion. 

Jesus belongs in church, not the statehouse.


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Pi
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2015, 11:23:39 AM »

With regards to the tax exempt status of churches, why should any of them be tax exempt?

Lastly, this isn't a right versus left issue.  Right wing politicos does not equal religion. 

Jesus belongs in church, not the statehouse.


Churches should be tax exempt.  The money people give churches has already been taxed once.  If a group of people want to form a club and then meet at said club a few times a week, then I don't see why said club should have to pay taxes.

But it goes beyond that if it is a church.  Requiring the church to pay taxes based on contributions is not only double taxation.  It impedes the operation of the religions institution because it takes funds that could otherwise be used to provide a place of worship.

There is one exception to the taxation rule.  Any person that derives their income from the church should have to pay income taxes.  If a televangelist receives cash from the church they should be subject to taxes.  Otherwise, all contributions used for upkeep of the church and related activities should not be subject to taxation.

I've seen a lot of people say that churches should have to pay taxes.  Most of that stems from a personal grudge people have against organized religion.  Especially the people who refer to themselves as libertarian.  A lot of them are okay with the idea of lowering or eliminating corporate taxes.  It doesn't make sense to me that some of those same people support taxing churches.
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2015, 12:20:26 PM »



I've seen a lot of people say that churches should have to pay taxes.  Most of that stems from a personal grudge people have against organized religion.  Especially the people who refer to themselves as libertarian.  A lot of them are okay with the idea of lowering or eliminating corporate taxes.  It doesn't make sense to me that some of those same people support taxing churches.

seems like that would be a very small percentage of people that call themselves libertarian, I've never noticed that point in any of the Reason/CATO or "mainstream" libertarian publications/sites.  Was it generally in the context of "I can't create a church and it be tax exemt so all churches should pay taxes"? I think I remember there being some backlash in reference to the Catholic church paying the fees, fines, etc. in relation to the pedophile cases a few years ago, was that what it was in reference to?
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2015, 04:04:26 PM »

Quote
As far as the other points go, government functionaries acting in a govt fashion should be required to fulfill their obligations as agents of the state regardless of their personal views, religious or otherwise.  This is simply part of being an adult and being paid to do a job.

With regards to the tax exempt status of churches, why should any of them be tax exempt?

Lastly, this isn't a right versus left issue.  Right wing politicos does not equal religion.

Jesus belongs in church, not the statehouse.

By all means, let's continue to encourage those in government in their belief that there is nothing greater than themselves, because they sure as hell know it isn't we, the people.
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2015, 04:36:37 PM »

典he power to tax is the power to destroy.

Chief Justice John Marshall
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John Florida
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« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2015, 07:28:56 PM »

Quote
As far as the other points go, government functionaries acting in a govt fashion should be required to fulfill their obligations as agents of the state regardless of their personal views, religious or otherwise.  This is simply part of being an adult and being paid to do a job.

With regards to the tax exempt status of churches, why should any of them be tax exempt?

Lastly, this isn't a right versus left issue.  Right wing politicos does not equal religion.

Jesus belongs in church, not the statehouse.

By all means, let's continue to encourage those in government in their belief that there is nothing greater than themselves, because they sure as hell know it isn't we, the people.  sheeple



   FIFY
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2015, 08:00:28 AM »

By all means, let's continue to encourage those in government in their belief that there is nothing greater than themselves, because they sure as hell know it isn't we, the people
This is good point.  When someone is acting as an official of the State, they are acting on behalf of the State and need to act in the manner that the State would act, not as they would act as an individual.  In essence, by allowing them to exempt themselves from their duties they are being allowed to place themselves above all other citizens as well as the State as an institution.
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2015, 08:38:56 AM »

By all means, let's continue to encourage those in government in their belief that there is nothing greater than themselves, because they sure as hell know it isn't we, the people
This is good point.  When someone is acting as an official of the State, they are acting on behalf of the State and need to act in the manner that the State would act, not as they would act as an individual.  In essence, by allowing them to exempt themselves from their duties they are being allowed to place themselves above all other citizens as well as the State as an institution.

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I might have been as it appears I've been misunderstood.

Officials of the State *are* acting as the State would act:  "Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." - Unsourced variant

It is because these people no longer believe, nor care, that there is a Higher Power to which they need answer.  I firmly believe this and say it, knowing that many -- and you may be one yourself -- do not believe in it either, and that's okay.  But if we are not the masters of those in government, and today we are not, and there is no Creator/Higher Power to put the fear of God in them, they acknowledge no Master and will act as gods themselves.  And they do.

What we watching all around us is the squandering of the last of the social capital generated by Christianity in this country.

What prompted my comment at all was your opinion that Christ needs to be kept in church, not in the statehouse.  I write this not intending to engage in a theological discussion/argument, because that is pointless; one either agrees or doesn't. 

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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2015, 09:31:30 AM »

I agree with you on some points and disagree with you on others.

Quote
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force
On this I agree with you unequivocally.  This is also why it is important that there be checks on the power of govt and by extension it's functionaries.

Quote
It is because these people no longer believe, nor care, that there is a Higher Power to which they need answer.  I firmly believe this and say it, knowing that many -- and you may be one yourself -- do not believe in it either, and that's okay.  But if we are not the masters of those in government, and today we are not, and there is no Creator/Higher Power to put the fear of God in them, they acknowledge no Master and will act as gods themselves.  And they do.
This is an area where we are going to diverge in part and agree in part, but in a way that may be hard to reconcile.  As for the divergence, it is not that I don't believe in a higher power, it is that I don't believe in the structure that says we need to "answer to" that higher power in terms of judgement.  Rather I believe that the judgement and the ramifications, be they good or bad, occurs in the here and now not in the after life.  Like you said, I am not trying to engage in a philosophical debate, I'm just trying to express that my views on this matter may be somewhat orthogonal to yours.  Where we agree is when there is nothing to put the fear in the political actors, they will act as Masters which they see themselves as.  Fear of judgement by God may be one way to reign them in, as could fear of their fellow man.

Quote
What we watching all around us is the squandering of the last of the social capital generated by Christianity in this country.  What prompted my comment at all was your opinion that Christ needs to be kept in church, not in the statehouse.
Again, I agree in part.  I agree that the concept of marriage is a Christian philosophy, at least as far as I understand it.  My religious views do not have marriage in the same sense but rather look at is as two people choosing to walk the same path, until such time as they don't, and marriage is a purely legal construct.  Were marriage to remain a purely religious function, I would have no problems with restrictions on who could engage, but alas it is not and it has become a legal construct; and for some, if not many people it is purely a legal construct.  This is where the issue runs afoul in that it is trying to say that religion has dominion over a secular function, which is not fair to those who do not subscribe to said religion.  The same thing can be said about any other religious view that conflicts with personal rights and where different religions have alternative views.  Hence the only answer I see is true freedom, and that includes keeping religion out of govt and keeping govt out of religion - hence my comment about Jesus belonging in a church not a Statehouse.
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Axiomatic
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2015, 10:27:51 AM »

Quote
Furthermore, this is not a Christian nation and was founded upon the principle that no religion shall set State policy and the courts have rightfully struck down an attempt to do so.

Wrong. This is a Christian nation with a secular government.
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2015, 06:51:31 PM »

I've been gone from this forum for quite a while and, wow, I have changed quite a bit reading back on my old posts.

Anyway, I'll link https://www.aclu.org/news/aclu-americans-united-applaud-colorado-supreme-court-decision-striking-down-voucher-program I saw. While I support the ACLU in most of their endeavours, I now value school choice, and the voucher idea, enough to not care if most are religious.

It's also interesting to note that the Americans United for Separation of Church and State organization mentioned in the article is led by an ordained minister.
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