What better reason to declare bankruptcy than health?

[snowcamper]

Since some people love bringing up the bankruptcy issue as justification for the governmental health care plans, as if this is a bad thing, I'd like to know what they do consider a good use of bankruptcy:

If it's not saving/prolonging/comforting your life, is it:

Spending too much money on your credit cards?
Buying more house than you can afford?
Going to prison so you can't pay your bills?
Getting a divorce?
Failing at a business venture that wasn't quite thought through or poorly timed?
Because you married wrong and are drug into it?

What exactly is a good reason to avail yourselves of the bankruptcy system?

I would argue that of all the examples that I could think of, health care is the most just, and most appropriate reason.  i.e.... you the debtor got in way over your head saving the life of someone you loved.  Could it be any more noble than that?  You had to do it... was a reason of life and death.  May God shine down upon you in that case 

I can find no such justifiable or noble reasons in running up credit cards, buying the expensive cars, too much house, failed relationships, or a capitalistic gamble that failed.

[belle]

Since some people love bringing up the bankruptcy issue as justification for the governmental health care plans, as if this is a bad thing, I'd like to know what they do consider a good use of bankruptcy:

If it's not saving/prolonging/comforting your life, is it:

Spending too much money on your credit cards?
Buying more house than you can afford?
Going to prison so you can't pay your bills?
Getting a divorce?
Failing at a business venture that wasn't quite thought through or poorly timed?
Because you married wrong and are drug into it?

What exactly is a good reason to avail yourselves of the bankruptcy system?

I would argue that of all the examples that I could think of, health care is the most just, and most appropriate reason.  i.e.... you the debtor got in way over your head saving the life of someone you loved.  Could it be any more noble than that?  You had to do it... was a reason of life and death.  May God shine down upon you in that case 

I can find no such justifiable or noble reasons in running up credit cards, buying the expensive cars, too much house, failed relationships, or a capitalistic gamble that failed.

well, camper, all I can say is god obviously blessed you, no health problems before medicare kicked in.

I had my house paid off. all 3 cars, paid for. less than $5000 on my $40,000 credit cards, less than $10,000 on my $250,000 house. but my husband got cancer, and he had the bad luck to be less than 60 years old. so I am looking at bankruptcy.

and we have health insurance. the problem is, it got raised to over $1000/mo last month. and I have 6 years before my husband gets medicare.

so I can sell my house, and pay health insurance. see?

[bobsyouruncle]

snowcamper,

What are you thinking? 

People are being chased down by collection agencies while they are sitting in intensive care watching their loved ones die.  Do you actually imagine that they feel better that they are dealing with a dying loved one and not credit card debt?

Why is it your place to be judging people who go bankrupt anyway?

Since some people love bringing up the bankruptcy issue as justification for the governmental health care plans, as if this is a bad thing,

[snowcamper]

I am sorry to hear of his situation, and will pray for you tonight.

So see a financial planner.  Divide the assets that are left, and let your husband declare bankruptcy.  It's his problem after all... and it doesn't have to become yours.  One person's debt can not be collected against another person without their permission.

But the best solution is still not to destroy the best, most innovative system of health care on the planet just because something  bad happened to someone.

Maybe you could borrow against the house...get a legal divorce... seek charitable assistance?  Move to a community property state...  This isn't my area of expertise, but there are many other avenues without resorting to politics to fix the problem.

[belle]

I am sorry to hear of his situation, and will pray for you tonight.

So see a financial planner.  Divide the assets that are left, and let your husband declare bankruptcy.  It's his problem after all... and it doesn't have to become yours.  One person's debt can not be collected against another person without their permission.

But the best solution is still not to destroy the best, most innovative system of health care on the planet just because something  bad happened to someone.

Maybe you could borrow against the house...get a legal divorce... seek charitable assistance?  Move to a community property state...  This isn't my area of expertise, but there are many other avenues without resorting to politics to fix the problem.

he is my husband. do you hear what you are saying?

abandon him?

[snowcamper]

Abandon the care for him to the systems already in place.  Never abandon him as your partner in life.

There is a financial and legal line, but I'm not qualified to tell you where it is.  The system can protect spouses from the debts of the other.  And no, it is my understanding that this does not involve leaving them.  It couldn't hurt to ask someone.

And I'm not making the judgments on reasons for bankruptcy... the people making the judgments are the folks saying that bankruptcy for health care is bad... so when is it good?

That's actually a question... then I gave some examples for when I thought health seemed more justifiable than other reasons.

I'm not trying to be cruel, heartless, unsympathetic...  I'm trying to point out that people declare bankruptcy for many lesser reasons than health.  Why so bad that they do it for this?

[belle]

Abandon the care for him to the systems already in place.  Never abandon him as your partner in life.

There is a financial and legal line, but I'm not qualified to tell you where it is.  The system can protect spouses from the debts of the other.  And no, it is my understanding that this does not involve leaving them.  It couldn't hurt to ask someone.

And I'm not making the judgments on reasons for bankruptcy... the people making the judgments are the folks saying that bankruptcy for health care is bad... so when is it good?

That's actually a question... then I gave some examples for when I thought health seemed more justifiable than other reasons.
I'm not trying to be cruel, heartless, unsympathetic...  I'm trying to point out that people declare bankruptcy for many lesser reasons than health.  Why so bad that they do it for this?

getting a little ahead of the thread there, camper?

[belle]

but you are absolutely right. 2 years ago I knew this was coming, and should have divorced him. but I did not, so what is the alternative?

[bobsyouruncle]

snowcamper,

No one is judging people for declaring bankruptcy because of medical debt.  The point is that it is a shameful thing that the US health care system is so messed up that people go bankrupt because  someone got sick or injured, including people who had insurance.

This doesn't happen in the other industrialized nations of the world.  And we don't have the best, most innovative health care on the planet.  Other countries have excellent health care systems that are just as or more innovative, and no one goes bankrupt there because they or their children got sick or hurt.

Your advice to belle is to shrug off the expense onto the system.  That doesn't solve the systemic problems.  We need to address the overall problem, but Senator Demint says that if the Republicans can stop health care reform, it will be Obama's Waterloo and break him.

That's really helpful.

[natvrabit]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/health/policy/25bankruptcy.html?_r=1&hp

"Although statistics are elusive, there  is a general sense among bankruptcy lawyers and court officials...the share of personal bankruptcies caused by illness is growing".

[Ramona Kadrich]

I have worked full time, sometimes up to three jobs at one time, since I was 14 years old. My husband and I budged well. We were thrifty. We saved.  We even clipped coupons. At 49 having never had a serious health issue, he died. We had insurance. He was only in the hospital for 17 days. After insurance I was left with a 228,000.000 bill. Requiring a 4000 a month payment. Medical bills can bankrupt anyone.

[Tbone]

I read this thread and saw the word 'system' several times.

That's the problem, re. health care there really is no true 'system' in the U.S.   It is a Rube Goldberg machine at best.

[NC YIPPIE]

Actually, it's a relatively easy point:

People who spend too much on their house or cars, people who buy too many things they can't afford - oh well - people just don't have a lot of sympathy for these folks, because most often they brought their situation upon themselves.

The difference is that most of the people declaring bankruptcy for health costs did not do anything wrong. They just happened to get cancer or whatever. So the question is not what is the best use of the bankruptcy laws, but rather, why should someone go belly-up over their health care?

Ramona's local example above is perfect to illustrate this point.

[snowcamper]

If we're talking about "should", let's look at bankruptcy again.

In a bankruptcy, the creditors lose money.  Whether it is the big corporate entity that loses on a credit card gone bad, or the mom and pop auto dealer who never gets paid for their car... someone loses.

I maintain that it is "better" to lose money to someone's bankruptcy "because they didn't do anything wrong" than because they did.  Thus, from a moral standpoint, a bankruptcy due to healthcare would seem to be "better" than one due to frivolity... particularly from the standpoint of society, not the person declaring.

[NC YIPPIE]

"better"?

Ah, not so much from the perspective of the person filing on their deathbed, or after their spouse's funeral. Bankruptcy is not something to aspire towards.

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