Health care isn't a "right"

[RJLeeb]

And I think you've misunderstood Silk_Hope.

Look at what you're saying here..

"He doesn't feel..."

"He doesn't seem to understand..."

Come on Bobs. 

[RJLeeb]

Bobs,

I guess you're going to ignore my point about Cuba and the true cost driver of healthcare?

[bobsyouruncle]

And I think you've misunderstood Silk_Hope.

Look at what you're saying here..

"He doesn't feel..."

"He doesn't seem to understand..."

Come on Bobs. 

Okay, Leeb.  Here's what I said.

He doesn't seem to understand why Congress has taken up the issue of health care reform.  He doesn't feel it is appropriate because he thinks people should be responsible for themselves and not want help from the government.

You think I am misrepresenting Silk Hope's views so I'll change it.

He seems to understand why Congress has taken up the issue of health care reform.  He feels it is appropriate because he thinks people should be responsible for themselves and not want help from the government.

There.  I took out what you objected to.  It doesn't reflect the reality of the conversation Silk Hope and I were having, but as long as it suits you I guess that's the most important thing on this bulletin board.

[RJLeeb]

Actually, I think it is important, for the purposes of an honest debate, not to have double standards.

Still waiting for your defense of the comments you made about Cuban healthcare...

[mamacash2]

I have just gone thru the entire thread here as I have not been on this thread before tonight...and as usual the "right" thinks that only the shiftless, lazy worker is the one running up hospital costs and the "left" is looking for the government to give them a free pass. The right thinks that the government will demand nurses go to homes and work on folks because it is a right.

OKAY...where is the response to helping your neighbor and taking care of your fellow man? I have been a nurse since 1974....I have been called out in the middle of the night to a neighbor who was having a heart attack...did I go...of course...was I paid....no..did I expect payment...no...why? because Man kind is my business....helping others is what this country is all about.

Want to know how it felt when We lost everything due to Medical Bills...lousy...do I expect any of you folks to help me with My food, shelter or any other necessities of life....NO because in your need to make your points you showed me who and what you really are.

You are the guys who claim you are religious and caring, you give a few bucks at Christmas to make yourselves feel better BUT don't try to change the status quo...don't expect folks to get your money...no one wants your money...that is your fear tactic...that is just the type of BULL sh*t that scares all the "silent majority"...the folks who worked to have their homes and life...you know those folks and so do I ...I was one of you...I had the house and cars and a good job with really good insurance...until...it as all gone because We got too sick to work and too in debt to ever see daylight again...why?? because we lived beyond our means...hardly...because we are just one couple of many who fall through the cracks of this broken system called health insurance and health care...just hope you don't have it happen to you.

[bobsyouruncle]

Actually, I think it is important, for the purposes of an honest debate, not to have double standards.

Still waiting for your defense of the comments you made about Cuban healthcare...

And ignoring everything all parts of the discussion you choose to ignore?  Leeb, it never ends well for you when you bait people,  then you end up even more hostile.  No thanks.

[RJLeeb]

Actually, I think it is important, for the purposes of an honest debate, not to have double standards.

Still waiting for your defense of the comments you made about Cuban healthcare...

And ignoring everything all parts of the discussion you choose to ignore?  Leeb, it never ends well for you when you bait people,  then you end up even more hostile.  No thanks.

So in other words, you don't have a defense?

That was a silly comment you made about Cuba.  If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine.  I'll consider my point taken and we'll move along.  And that point is: you can't believe everything Michael Moore tells you.

Look, I read your analysis of claims processing.  My point wasn't about the cost of processing claims, it was about the cost of the claims in the first place.

That's what's driving up the cost of healthcare.  It isn't CEO pay.

Why are you avoiding that topic when it is the most important one at hand?

[RJLeeb]

I have just gone thru the entire thread here as I have not been on this thread before tonight...and as usual the "right" thinks that only the shiftless, lazy worker is the one running up hospital costs and the "left" is looking for the government to give them a free pass. The right thinks that the government will demand nurses go to homes and work on folks because it is a right.

OKAY...where is the response to helping your neighbor and taking care of your fellow man? I have been a nurse since 1974....I have been called out in the middle of the night to a neighbor who was having a heart attack...did I go...of course...was I paid....no..did I expect payment...no...why? because Man kind is my business....helping others is what this country is all about.

Want to know how it felt when We lost everything due to Medical Bills...lousy...do I expect any of you folks to help me with My food, shelter or any other necessities of life....NO because in your need to make your points you showed me who and what you really are.

You are the guys who claim you are religious and caring, you give a few bucks at Christmas to make yourselves feel better BUT don't try to change the status quo...don't expect folks to get your money...no one wants your money...that is your fear tactic...that is just the type of BULL sh*t that scares all the "silent majority"...the folks who worked to have their homes and life...you know those folks and so do I ...I was one of you...I had the house and cars and a good job with really good insurance...until...it as all gone because We got too sick to work and too in debt to ever see daylight again...why?? because we lived beyond our means...hardly...because we are just one couple of many who fall through the cracks of this broken system called health insurance and health care...just hope you don't have it happen to you.

So what you're saying is, nurses shouldn't complain about the pay the government doles out to them or the assignments they are given?  Regardless of when things happen, be they day or night?

I understand your emotional response.  I get it.  What I don't get is that you seem to claim that everyone that doesn't agree with your point of view about healthcare (i.e. the right) are cold, heartless, hypocritical individuals.

To those of you decrying personal attacks in the other thread, or claiming that people are personalizing things to make a point...

This post by mamacash is exhibit A.

[bobsyouruncle]

Actually, I think it is important, for the purposes of an honest debate, not to have double standards.

Still waiting for your defense of the comments you made about Cuban healthcare...

And ignoring everything all parts of the discussion you choose to ignore?  Leeb, it never ends well for you when you bait people,  then you end up even more hostile.  No thanks.

So in other words, you don't have a defense?

That was a silly comment you made about Cuba.  If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine.  I'll consider my point taken and we'll move along.  And that point is: you can't believe everything Michael Moore tells you.

Look, I read your analysis of claims processing.  My point wasn't about the cost of processing claims, it was about the cost of the claims in the first place.

That's what's driving up the cost of healthcare.  It isn't CEO pay.

Why are you avoiding that topic when it is the most important one at hand?

Leeb, 

I've been through this baiting thing with you before, and I've seen you do it with other people.  You put your ego on the line, and when you mess up then you are more of a bully than ever.  I already answered you. I don't have a habit of posting things when there is no explanation for what I've said. 

It makes you look like a punk when you try to set up a pi$$ing contest with someone, especially after you ignore reams of information that other people have posted. 

[RJLeeb]

Oh ok.

So you don't want to defend your comment about Cuba.  I imagine that's because it is indefensible and you know it.  I can't recall any other time when you've restrained yourself from trying to prove me wrong.

When you do things, it is "debating".  When I do them, it is "baiting".  Fantastic double standard you've got there.

When you can't debate the facts...result to personal attacks.  If I recall correctly, "punk" is not a term of endearment.

So are you going to discuss the primary drivers of healthcare cost (claims) or would you rather just rant about the unfairness of CEO pay and call it a day?

[bobsyouruncle]

When you can't debate the facts...result to personal attacks.  If I recall correctly, "punk" is not a term of endearment.

Leeb,

If the worse personal attack you ever have to endure is being told that it makes you look like a punk when you try to set up a pi$$ing contest, then you will have lived a charmed life and gotten off light!!

 

[RJLeeb]

Then why not discuss the real cost drivers?  I swear I won't bite.

And I won't mention your silly comment about Cuban healthcare.  Well, after this time, I mean.

And you'll have gotten off very lightly...

Let's start here:

http://www.wardhealth.com/en/newsletters/access_to_innovation/latest_data_confirms_institutional_care_as_primary_cost_driver_of_provincial_health_spending

Latest data confirms Institutional care as primary cost driver of provincial health spending.

According to recent data released by the Canadian Institute for Health Information, institutional care (hospitals, nursing homes, and other long term care facilities) continues to drive provincial health spending. The Provincial Government Fiscal Report 2002 shows that although overall health spending is continuing to slowly shift from inpatient to outpatient services, institutional care still accounts for more than half of all provincial health spending, while physicians and other health professionals account for 22 percent, and drugs account for another 7.7 percent of provincial health spending.





As Canada's population ages, containing the costs of institutional care will become increasingly important to the financial viability of health care in Canada. Shifting health costs from inpatient care to prescription drugs and outpatient services not only improves the quality of care for most patients, it also is a cost-effective approach to meeting the increasing need for health services by an ageing population.

In other words, even in a single payer system, the primary cost driver are the claims themselves.

Factors include:

1. Age
2. Lifestyle choices

So I ask you: how does the government's plan address lifestyle choices? 

[bobsyouruncle]

Knock yerself out. 

[RJLeeb]

Knock yerself out. 

This discussion thing works a lot better when you participate.  I don't recall you posting on this particular aspect of the current bill.

[djkelly]

Right there you have made the case for why we need health care reform.  The current system in which pre-existing conditions are a reason for denying coverage leads to the expensive situation you describe above.  People need to have health insurance whether or not they have pre-exisiting conditions. 

I've never debated the fact that we need health care reform.  What I disagree with are the proposals that have been made by Congress.  They do little or nothing to address the real costs of health care. 

On the individual level the inability to pay for health care is a crisis to those involved, as your many examples illustrate, on a national level it's the overall cost of health care that's a crisis for the economic well-being of the entire country.  The current proposals before Congress may address the individual crisis and I'm not even convinced they'll do that very well, but they do not seriously address the national issue and that effects everyone of us, not just those that can't get insurance or have unaffordable bills even with insurance.

dj-- I appreciate all the time and attention you put into posting so much information. What I was answering before was someone's question of how single payer would save money.  You know it would. You work in billing. If you also work in accounts receivable you know that the system we have now is not efficient or cost effective. 

But no one is proposing a true single payer, at least not yet.  Even though a single payer system might save some money I pointed out quite a few reasons why it wouldn't help as much as you seem to think it would.  Medicare certainly has it's problems and it would be a good idea to fix those before we expand on it.  It certainly won't help the underlying national crisis that is facing all countries.  The fact that good health care is very expensive.

The difference in how I feel is that I don't think there is any reason that people working together in our country can't work together to work out the most cost-effective way to cover everyone.

I think we should have long ago gotten past the idea that some people deserve health care and some don't. I think that people arguing against health care reform are not taking a close, realistic look at the problems of the system we have today.  I think they are allowing themselves to be scared into throwing up their hands and declaring that there is just nothing to be done that won't make things worse--then they do their darnedest to prove it true. 

There are plenty of people making good suggestions but the political system is not willing to work with the people that are making rational suggestions based on facts instead of political soundbites.  And that goes for both Democrats and Republicans.

I would love for everyone to have all the health care they could possibly want, along with a nice house, transportation, food and clothing.  But it all has to be paid for somehow.  Health care is very EXPENSIVE.  The vast majority of those health insurance premiums goes to paying the doctor bills for care, not to profit, CEO salaries or  administrative costs.  Those last 3 haven't changed much over the years but the amount of the actual care has gone up dramatically.  That is what needs to be addressed. 

It doesn't matter how much we WANT to help people.  We have to be able to pay for it.  That's the hard part and that's what people are fighting about.  When Congress proposes a bill that will actually address the heart of the issue instead of playing budgetary games, ignore the underlying problems, and propose things that will hurt many of the same people they claim to be helping, I'll support it.  But I can't support this farce they're proposing now.


There are many people that have taken long hard looks at the problems of the system we have today and proposed changes that have a good chance of helping to fix some of the problems but some people are doing their darndest to condemn anyone that doesn't support whatever the current proposal is instead of actually discussing those suggestions.

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