President Obama bowing to Emperor

[mountain gal]

Another video - 5:45 into it - Obama bows again to the Saudi King - reporter goes on to explain the protocol and says "Obama was the first American President in history to do so".  Video also has Obama clarifying whether we are a Christian/Muslim nation.


If you have doubts this may change your mind.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/tCAffMSWSzY&amp;rel=0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/tCAffMSWSzY&amp;rel=0</a>

 
 

[bobsyouruncle]

Where's the outrage over Obama saying that he liked green tea ice cream as a child?  I would think the birthers could rest their case after that admission.

[bobsyouruncle]

... reporter goes on to explain the protocol and says "Obama was the first American President in history to do so"...

I believe Bush Sr. was the first American president to throw up in his plate at the home of the Japanese prime minister.  I guess every president wants to bag a "first" for the record books!

[RJLeeb]

I think you are way off the deep end in terms of your analysis of the significance of this gesture either way. It strikes me as a teeny, tiny, miniscule concern in a world of great change and tragedy.

It may strike you as a "tiny" matter, but then again, the importance our culture puts on such gestures may be quite a bit less than the importance they put on it.

It's an interesting dichotomy, isn't it?  I mean, the left has had a field day bashing the Bush Admin for missteps of etiquette.  In fact, once this discussion started, they couldn't wait to provide examples...

So the question is: are both sides making too much of an issue out of this or not?  Or are both sides making an issue of it because it is politically expedient to use it as a point of criticism?

If what other countries think of us is so important, why is this suddenly a non-issue? 

Because its Obama, of course.  And Obama invokes a double standard from both his supporters and detractors. 

[NC YIPPIE]

It does seem that you are at least a bit upset - or perhaps disturbed is a better word, but I just don't share your conclusions or overall analysis. I'm sorry if that came across the wrong way.  

In any case, as noted in the LA Times article on the matter, many foreign citizens may actually view this in a much more positive manner than as a sign of weakness. Everyone knows how powerful the US military is, and I just don't think how the President bows or does not bow has much impact on how they view our laser-guided missiles.

As far as in comparison to past presidents, I think President Bush's 'my way or the highway' attitude was much more boorish and destructive to our national interests abroad. I could care less about him holding hands or his father throwing up or any of those similarly tiny issues. I think the perception of foreigners may not be one of weakness, but rather one of respect.

But because its Obama, the right automatically concludes it must be a negative.

 

[djkelly]

As a single incident in light of other issues this may not be a big deal, but it's also a simple enough thing to get right.

While there is some debate here over whether or not the President should bow to anyone, if he is going to adopt the local customs and bow he should at least do it right.

Bowing is an important part of Japanese culture and there are numerous guides available to help businessmen and visitors how to do it right.  His performance does not appear to fit the standard protocol.

While the Japanese are renowned for their tolerance and understanding of the gaffes of visitors I would expect someone as worldly and refined as Obama supposedly is to have the respect for another culture to get such a basic thing right.

[NC YIPPIE]

So what did they think in Japan - did they think it was boorish? No, according to the NY Post his behavior "earned him the applause of older-generation Japanese that considers such humility a tremendous show of respect."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/politics/bam_bows_big_for_japanese_emperor_xOuoKJXNIiyI22P5BD8f6I

And from the LA Times - "a lot of approving nods in Japan this weekend, especially among the older generation of
Japanese."

[bobsyouruncle]

So the question is: are both sides making too much of an issue out of this or not?  Or are both sides making an issue of it because it is politically expedient to use it as a point of criticism?

All people like me are doing is commenting on a thread critical of Obama.  No attack on Obama=no reason to defend him.

So both sides aren't making too much of an issue of this, because the attack is what creates the issue.

[NC YIPPIE]

It seems from the reports that the Japanese see this as a sign of respect and humility, which is greatly valued in their country. Even articles critical of Obama note that it is "seen as a sign of respect in Japan."

So where exactly did that boorish comment originate from earlier?

I saw this quote at Washington Monthly:
"If you're thinking this was an inconsequential moment, especially as compared to the significance of the trip itself, you're underestimating the right's propensity to embrace nonsense."

So, has a US President ever bowed?

To the Pope:


To the wife of the Italian Prime Minister:


I mean, US Presidents just don't EVER bow to foreigners, much less the Emperor of Japan:


Oh no, it has never happened before, that's what someone told me - somewhere. 

[CalUCD]

It seems from the reports that the Japanese see this as a sign of respect and humility, which is greatly valued in their country. Even articles critical of Obama note that it is "seen as a sign of respect in Japan."

So where exactly did that boorish comment originate from earlier?

I saw this quote at Washington Monthly:
"If you're thinking this was an inconsequential moment, especially as compared to the significance of the trip itself, you're underestimating the right's propensity to embrace nonsense."

So, has a US President ever bowed?

I mean, US Presidents just don't EVER bow to foreigners, much less the Emperor of Japan:

Oh no, it has never happened before, that's what someone told me - somewhere. 

Actually, I think, the worst example is of former President Bush bowing to Pope Benedict XVl.  It's only appropriate to bow and kiss the Pontif's ring if one is Catholic.  I did not claim it hasn't occured
before.

Would it be productive to discuss the differences between the occurances?  No, probably not.  For some on this board it's appropriate for the President to bow to foreign leaders.  I learned a few things.  Thank you for the responses.  It's been, well, fascinating.

Dave Jaeger

[NC YIPPIE]

Why are you so sensitive? Why so snarky? You complain about me, and then you continue with the tone. It's no big deal, really. Interesting.

It seems a fair point that contrary to what many websites are reporting, this has happened before and it was no big deal. It seems that 'to some in the USA' might be more like 'to some in the USA who already dislike Obama' this would be considered a big deal. You made a point that his behavior would seem boorish to the Japanese and I pointed out that multiple sources thought that on the contrary, again, many Japanese would see this as a positive show of respect and humility.

So I'm not quite sure why you have chosen to skip over those valid points and just say "No, probably not" in terms of discussion.

"Bowing shouldn't be looked upon as a sign of deference or submissiveness. It's simply a way of showing respect--to customs, traditions, and people." - from Insidejapan.com

http://www.inside-japan.com/bowing-in-japan.html

[bobsyouruncle]

... Who looks like they are in charge when he is bowing to these foreign leaders? ...

For some on this board it's appropriate for the President to bow to foreign leaders. 

Okay, this isn't my first reference to many hours logged in at church and bible camp during my childhood.  I either was taught very differently or just reached a lot of different conclusions.

In Sunday School when I was really, really young, we were told the story of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples.  I was taught that Jesus was teaching them to respect and serve people without concern for which person was considered to be more important.

That's probably why I think that not only is there nothing wrong, but there is something symbolically elegant about Obama's understanding that you do not demean yourself or your country through a gesture of respect.

And for the record, it was fine with me for Bush to hold any hand he wanted, assuming that it was fine with the person who owned the hand.

[Linda Felt]

For some on this board it's appropriate for the President to bow to foreign leaders.

Do you think a US President shaking hands is appropriate?  In Japan, bowing is basically equivalent to a handshake.

This is all a tempest in a teapot....

[bobsyouruncle]

I found this explanation when I was trying to find out how the Japanese were likely to view Obama's bow.  If this is accurate, then it was an inside understanding that Obama had of Japanese culture and values. Outsiders might misunderstand, but the Japanese people would definitely get it and appreciate his bow.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TW7lHYwXhS4C&lpg=PA143&ots=4kuhVjGQH1&dq=japan%20virtue%20humility&pg=PA143#v=onepage&q=japan%20virtue%20humility&f=false

[djkelly]

On President Obama's Bow to the Japanese Emperor, An Academic Friend Writes That Both the Left and the Right Are Wrong

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/11/on-president-obamas-bow-to-the-japanese-emperor-an-academic-friend-writes-that-both-the-left-and-the-right-are-wrong.html

An old friend -- an academic with expertise about the Japanese Empire, and in general a supporter of President Obama -- sends me the following note, relating to photographs of President Obama bowing to Emperor Akihito of Japan.

"This picture shows two things," my friend writes.

"1) The 'right' is wrong about Obama's bow.

"2) The 'left' is wrong about Obama's bow.

"His bow is neither (1) unprecedented nor (2) a sign of cultural understanding.

"At their 1971 meeting in Alaska, the first visit of a Japanese Emperor to America, President Nixon bowed and referred to Emperor Hirohito and his wife repeatedly as 'Your Imperial Majesties.'"

"Yet, (and?) Nixon gets the bow right. Slight arch from the waist hands at his side.

"Obama's handshake/forward lurch was so jarring and inappropriate it recalls Bush's back-rub of Merkel.

"Kyodo News is running his appropriate and reciprocated nod and shake with the Empress, certainly to show the president as dignified, and not in the form of a first year English teacher trying to impress with Karate Kid-level knowledge of Japanese customs.

"The bow as he performed did not just display weakness in Red State terms, but evoked weakness in Japanese terms....The last thing the Japanese want or need is a weak looking American president and, again, in all ways, he unintentionally played that part.

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