President Obama bowing to Emperor

[CalUCD]

Unfortunately, IMO, this puts the question to rest wether or not our President was bowing to the Saudi King.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6567670/Barack-Obama-bows-and-talks-of-green-tea-icecream-as-he-pushes-US-ties-in-Asia.html




Dave Jaeger

[NC YIPPIE]

Do you actually think this is a legitimate issue or concern?

[chrstnhsbndfthr]

Several interesting points.  After all the shrill denials and spin about last time, it turns out that yes, he does bow to foreign Kings and Emperors.

If there is a legitimate diplomatic reason to do this, why not just start there? Why do they have to go through all the denials and attacks and spin first?

It speaks to integrity and world-view, both of which are legitimate issues to discuss about our President.  Remember that our Presidents have been, up to now anyway, referred to as "the leader of the free world!" Who looks like they are in charge when he is bowing to these foreign leaders?  And how does it makes his followers feel to KNOW now that they were fooled when they were denying he bows to foreign leaders?

[belle]

forget the bow, I think that is protocol. he has aides who figure that out.




just check out the garment the Empress has on. amazing.

[CalUCD]

Do you actually think this is a legitimate issue or concern?

Yes, from what I understand this is an inappropriate gesture.  I believe, in Japan, according to Shinto teachings, the body is divided into three zones.  From the shoulders up represents heaven.  When bowing, it is appropriate to offer the highest of the body in respect, the heaven aspect.  Akihito Samma is not even bowing at all.  This shows he does not respect the President, or he is surprised.  Another possibility is the still shot did not capture this.

However, it is appropriate to bow at the same angle and duration of the host, when equals are addressing one another.  The key is the Empress.  She is not bowing at all.  In other words, our President either ignored his advisors on cultural ettiquette or he "winged it".

I think it's an issue because he is either prostrating himself to another or is showing disrespect by not understanding the cultural and diplomatic implications of his actions.  Additionaly, if he was going to bow he should have shaken hands first, and then bowed with his hands on his upper thighs.

Additionally, to some of us in the U.S.A., Presidents should not humble themselves in this manner, ever.  Even if done accurately, it is never appropriate.  He is not a private individual.  He is the representative of the United States of America.  He represents not just the people.  He represents the concept as well.  He diminishes both when he, IMHO, behaves this boorishly.

Dave Jaeger

[Beel]

At least he ain't holding hands with some Saudi prince. 

[Claude Bowles]

.Or massaging the neck of a female head of state

[NC YIPPIE]

Ok, fair enough. I think you are way off the deep end in terms of your analysis of the significance of this gesture either way. It strikes me as a teeny, tiny, miniscule concern in a world of great change and tragedy.

Much more important than trivial concerns and speculation about cultural etiquette are the results of these meetings and his overall foreign policy with these countries.

But I could see how this would upset some people.

[bluetick67]

.Or massaging the neck of a female head of state

Ah, beat me to it.

George Bush --> Angela Merkel (note: only using Bush as an example because it's the most publicized similar gaffe I could think of....)

If Obama's interpretation of the proper bow was incorrect, he most likely knows, now, and won't make the mistake again (in Japan).

[CalUCD]

At least he ain't holding hands with some Saudi prince. 

From what I remember about that visit by the Saudi King. President Bush kissed both of his cheeks and held his right hand.  Neither gesture was culturally inappropriate.  Both in diplomatic and business environments neither of those activities is considered awkward nor do they define a hierarchal relationship.  They are greetings accorded to diplomatic/business equals.

However, it certainly could be argued as to wether or not a President should relate to or negotiate with any particular world leader.  But in this case the behavior was neither that of a supplicant or culturally ignorant.

Unfortunately, President Obama's humbling of himself and the office or gaffe, has occured at the beginning of an important diplomatic trip.  His gesture will not go unnoticed by those in asia who pay attention to such subtleties.

Dave Jaeger

[CalUCD]

Ok, fair enough. I think you are way off the deep end in terms of your analysis of the significance of this gesture either way. It strikes me as a teeny, tiny, miniscule concern in a world of great change and tragedy.

Much more important than trivial concerns and speculation about cultural etiquette are the results of these meetings and his overall foreign policy with these countries.

But I could see how this would upset some people.

Interesting, that you consider this observation "off the deep end".  Is this how you usually engage in friendly discourse?

I believe that, as you say, "trivial concerns and speculation about cultural etiquette" do, in fact, impact the results of these meetings.  If not, then, diplomatic protocol would not be as detailed and focused on subtlety as it is.

Why would I be upset?  Because I posted something?  Interesting.

Dave Jaeger

[CalUCD]

.Or massaging the neck of a female head of state

Inappropriate behavior for President Bush.  I think I'm confused.  What does this have to do with President Obama bowing to a King and an Emperor?  Are observations of President Obama's diplomatic behavior going to be met with well, Bush did this .....?

Oh well.

Dave Jaeger

[chathamshooter]

From what I remember about that visit by the Saudi King. President Bush kissed both of his cheeks and held his right hand.  
Dave Jaeger

I think they wipe themselves with their right hand w/o TP.

[CalUCD]

From what I remember about that visit by the Saudi King. President Bush kissed both of his cheeks and held his right hand.  
Dave Jaeger

I think they wipe themselves with their right hand w/o TP.

From Wikipedia,

Among Muslims, the left hand is reserved for bodily hygiene and considered unclean. Thus, the right hand should be used for eating. Shaking hands or handing over an item with one's left hand is an insult.[2

[bobsyouruncle]

At least he ain't holding hands with some Saudi prince. 

From what I remember about that visit by the Saudi King. President Bush kissed both of his cheeks and held his right hand.  Neither gesture was culturally inappropriate.  

That's a real true "your cat's fat/ my cat's fluffy" argument if I ever heard it.  If it's appropriate to adopt the other person's culture-- and kissing and holding hands was correct protocol because the prince was Saudi, then bowing to the emperor was correct protocol as a gesture of respect to the emperor in Japan.

But if the gesture is judged by our standards and you complain that in our eyes Obama was being submissive, then Bush and the Saudi prince were making out.

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